By now, we are all too familiar with citizen-police encounters that have ended tragically. We’re constantly seeing police brutality in the news and on social media. The purpose of this guide is to help you survive your encounter with the police, with your safety and your legal rights intact. You’ll then be in a better position to exercise your rights in court with the assistance of a qualified civil rights attorney. This guide is not about how the police should treat citizens. Rather, this ultimate guide to dealing with police is designed to help citizens like you navigate encounters with the police as safely as possible, based on how the police actually operate, with the goal of preventing you from becoming another victim of police brutality. Dealing with police is serious business, and can have long-term effects on your physical (and legal) well being.
The wrong approach during a police stop could get you locked up, hurt, or even killed. These tips should help you navigate dealing with police with the goal of protecting your physical and legal safety.
Who is this Ultimate Guide for?
The recommendations in this guide apply regardless of whether the officer you’re dealing with is acting appropriately or inappropriately, whether you’re dealing with a seasoned veteran or a nervous rookie, a conscientious officer or an overzealous, abusive bully with a badge who’s ready and willing to commit police brutality.
The advice offered here is not legal advice. It confers no attorney-client relationship between you and our office. This is a collection of common-sense recommendations for how to maintain your life, your physical safety, and your legal options when dealing with police in Chicago or elsewhere.
This guide to dealing with police is designed to provide you with a clear road map of how to accomplish two crucial objectives when dealing with law enforcement, listed in order of their importance:
In any encounter with the police, regardless of how the officer is doing his job, your job is to be calm, respectful, and compliant. Your number one priority when dealing with police should be to protect your physical safety. Without that, nothing else matters. Priority two is to maintain your future legal options.
Remember: on the street, the police have the overwhelming advantage. They have guns, tasers, batons, mace, and other equipment designed to subdue civilians (that means you) through the infliction of pain. They have the legal right to detain or arrest you. Depending on the circumstances, they may have the right to use physical force against you, including deadly force.
In other words, the police have the right to profoundly and negatively affect your life in many ways. What may start as a routine police stop can quickly change into a life-altering event. If you take a confrontational position when dealing with police on the street, you will lose that battle. You will endanger your physical safety, and you will increase your legal jeopardy, and you will compromise your future legal options.
Stay in “Comply” Mode
Given this unequal relationship, on the street, you should be in “Comply” mode. Do what the officer says. Keep your cool, get through the encounter safely, and don’t provide the officer any excuse to use greater force than necessary (or any force at all), or to detain or arrest you.
Anything that looks like a physical struggle will give officers greater cause to use force against you. It will likely result in criminal charges against you, and it could undermine or destroy any future civil claim you may have against the police.
Always assume you’re on camera. Most Chicago police officers, and many officers throughout the country, now wear body-worn cameras, which capture audio as well as video. Most police cars are equipped with so-called dashcams which also record audio and video.
Officers know their actions are being recorded. You need to know that too when dealing with police. Act as if a judge and a jury will see exactly what happened between you and the police, because they likely will.
Don’t give officers a reason or an excuse to use force or to arrest you during a police stop. Don’t unnecessarily place yourself in legal jeopardy. And don’t rob yourself of a civil lawsuit down the road.
Always assume you’re on camera. Act as if a judge and a jury will see exactly what happened between you and the police, because they likely will.
Later, when you’re speaking with an attorney, and/or when you’ve been released from police custody, you can complain, and think about your criminal case or civil lawsuit.
In short, Comply first, Complain later.
Always assume you’re on camera.
Most Chicago police officers, and many officers throughout the country, now wear body-worn cameras, which capture audio as well as video. Most police cars are equipped with so-called dashcams which also record audio and video. Officers know their actions are being recorded. You need to know that too. Act as if a judge and a jury will see exactly what happened between you and the police, because they likely will.
Imagine: You’re pulled over for no reason, knocked around by the police, and arrested without probable cause. Understandably, you’re frightened, angry, and humiliated. You want to fight back. You want to stand up for yourself. And you want the officer to be held accountable. You want justice.
So what do you do? Do you fight back? Do you stand up for yourself and your rights?
Yes, you do. But not the way you might think. Standing up for yourself on the street during the police stop means keeping your cool, complying with police orders, and submitting to arrest.
True accountability will come later — in court.
“Fighting back” on the street, i.e. resisting arrest, is a crime — even if the original arrest is later found to be unlawful. Resisting arrest also provides an easy excuse for the officer to justify police brutality, to rough you up, and take you to jail.
But what does it mean to “resist arrest?” Resisting arrest can mean refusing to put your hands behind your back, pulling your arm away as the officer tries to cuff you, and running (or even walking) away from the officer while he tries to arrest you. It can also include struggling with the officer, hiding, or giving the officer false identification verbally or with a fake I.D.
Even if you’re found not guilty on the underlying charge, you can still be found guilty for resisting arrest or obstructing an officer.
Also, resisting arrest gives the officer an excuse to use greater force against you.
What should you do when dealing with police?
Make it easy on yourself.
When an officer instructs you to do something, listen and comply. Don’t give him or her a reason to think that you are resisting.
Even if you believe that the arrest is wrongful or illegal, which it might very well be, you don’t want to give the police officer valid cause to arrest you. And you certainly don’t want to give an officer legal cause to use even more force against you.
The fact that you have to submit to a baseless arrest is extremely troubling and can be infuriating. This is America. That shouldn’t be allowed to happen during a police stop. But remember, as we noted above, this guide is not about the way the world should work — it’s designed to help you maintain your safety and your legal rights, based on the world as it is today, whether we like it or not.
So what are your options when dealing with an obviously illegal arrest? Think about it this way: Revenge is a dish best served cold.
So you don’t resist arrest, you submit to the arrest, and you wait.
That’s right, you wait. Your time will come. At some point, you will have the opportunity to meet with a criminal defense attorney — either a public defender or an attorney you or your family hire to defend you against any criminal charges. And later, you will have the opportunity to speak to a civil attorney experienced in handling civil rights cases, who will explore the possibility of filing a lawsuit against the police.
In criminal court, and in civil court, your case will be stronger and your legal position will be far better if you complied with the officer’s orders and kept your cool during the encounter. If you resist arrest, your case will be significantly weaker.
When do you take action against police misconduct?
Simply put, you complain later, after the alleged misconduct is over. You complain after dealing with police.
You should contact an experienced civil rights attorney and explain what happened. If you have been arrested without probable cause, you may have a false arrest claim against the officer or officers who arrested you.
This is where you complain: after the arrest, off the street. To a lawyer, to a judge, to a jury.
And, remember: Comply first. Complain later.
One of the most common justifications by police officers accused of using excessive force or otherwise engaging in police brutality is that the civilian refused to show his hands, or that the officer could not see the civilian’s hands.
Hundreds of unarmed people have been shot – many fatally – by officers who later claimed they believed the person had a gun in his pocket or in his hand and was about to take it out and fire at the officer.
Regardless of whether it is a legitimate justification or just an excuse for police brutality, you can only help yourself by showing the officer your hands.
When dealing with police, you have to pay attention to how you look in front of an officer. The officer does not know who you are, and has no idea if you are hiding a weapon.
So when an officer shows up, remove your hands slowly from your pockets or from wherever they are. Make sure the officer can see them. Put your hands on the steering wheel if you’re in a car. If you need to get your license and registration, make sure you do it slowly and carefully, and let the officer know what you’re doing.
You do not want to give the police justification to use deadly force. They will assume that your hands are reaching for or holding a weapon. Their job is to protect themselves and those around them. If they think you are hiding something deadly, they will respond with their own deadly force.
Plenty of people have been shot by officers who later claimed the person acted in a quick or “furtive” (i.e. deceptive) manner, and that they believed they were about to be attacked or shot.
And the fact is that many officers have been attacked and shot by people out of the blue.
Do not give officers reason to believe, or reason to claim, that your actions placed them in fear of being attacked. Move slowly and predictably if you need to move at all, and explain what you’re doing, especially if you’re removing something from your pocket.
Officers are trained to assume the worst. They will not give you the benefit of the doubt if you could be a threat to them or others around you.
A sudden move gives officers only a split-second to make a decision. They often will react strongly, even with deadly force.
Showing your hands at all times will help to prevent a disaster. Communicating your moves before making them can prevent officers from assuming the worst. Just make sure the police officers give you permission to make the move first. Move slowly and predictably at all times.
Imagine this scenario: A police officer stops you on the street or pulls you over and begins asking you questions about your activities, where you’re coming from, where you’re going.
You answer his questions because you know you haven’t done anything wrong, and you believe you have nothing to hide. So why not talk?
The next thing you know, the officer tell you to place your hands behind your back to be arrested.
Much later, you learn the officer is claiming you gave him incriminating information about yourself. You try to remember what you told the officer, but you obviously can’t remember everything you said.
In court, you testify you don’t recall saying anything incriminating to the officer. That’s not a very strong position.
You know what’s much better? This:
“I did not provide any information to the officer other than my name. I declined to speak with him. So I know I didn’t say anything incriminating.”
If you know you didn’t say anything to the officer, you can confidently deny that you provided incriminating information.
The Right to Remain Silent
We all know we have the right to remain silent when questioned by the police. As a general rule, we recommend exercising this right, especially when it comes to arguing with the officer or providing details of your activities.
The right to remain silent stems from the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution, which states that “No person . . . shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself.”
When you provide information to the police about yourself or your activities, you are acting as a witness against yourself. In that situation, there is very little to gain and a whole lot to lose.
You never know how your words will be used against you. Don’t give officers, and then a jury, a chance to take your words out of context.
Police are trained in interrogating citizens and potential suspects. Everything they do and everything they say is designed to justify an arrest and to support a criminal conviction. Too often, it’s not about what actually happened, it’s about what they can prove. Think your innocence will guarantee you won’t be arrested or convicted? Think again.
As a result, you should limit your conversations with the police as much as possible.
You should let the officers know your name — your real name — if asked. You can also ask if you are free to leave and whether the officer has a warrant. And you can state that you don’t consent to searches and that you will not speak without your attorney present.
The vast majority of that time, that is the most you should ever say.
Communicate to Protect Yourself During a Police Stop
However, if you’re going to be doing something physical — pulling out your identification or vehicle registration, getting out of the car — make sure you explain to the officer what you’re doing. Remember to do it slowly and deliberately.
If you have a firearm, let the officer know and tell the officer where it is. In fact, we recommend asking the officer if you can take whatever action it is before you do it. “Officer, my registration is in my glove compartment. Can I reach in and get it?” If he says no, then don’t. It may be annoying to ask permission for such a simple action; it may even be humiliating. But it may also save your life.
So, when it comes to physical actions during a police stop, make sure you’re communicating with the officer, and that the two of you are on the same page.
When in doubt, don’t do it unless the officer is aware of what you’re doing and has agreed. This is not about the law. It’s not about right and wrong. It’s about staying alive. You don’t know the officer, and the officer doesn’t know you. The officer may assume the worst, and interpret any action on your part as a threat.
Do not take a chance. Communicate.
The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guarantees the right of people to be free from unreasonable searches and violations of privacy. With some limited exceptions, searches without a search warrant violate the Fourth Amendment.
FAQ:
Q. What is a search warrant?
A. A search warrant is written authorization signed by a judge that allows the officer to search a specific area, like a home or a vehicle. The warrant needs to specifically state the area to be searched. A warrant requires probable cause to believe a crime was committed and items connected to that crime may be found at the location to be searched.
One of those limited exceptions is when the officers obtain consent to search by the owner of the property to be searched. So, should you consent to search?
In order to answer that question, ask yourself this question:
Why?
Why would you allow an officer to search your property? Do you get a “Good Citizen” medal if you consent?
No.
Can you later move to suppress any evidence the officer finds (or claims to find) because you consented?
Nope.
In fact, it’s just the opposite: consenting to a search means you can never move to suppress any evidence on the grounds that there was no legal basis to search your property.
This is a huge asset you have in the event you are charged with a crime based on the results of the officer’s search. It makes no sense to surrender your Fourth Amendment rights by consenting to a search when dealing with police.
What’s the harm of consenting to a search?
Understand that if an officer asks you to consent (usually by saying something casual, like “Do you mind if I take a look?”), it means he has no legal basis to search, and he needs your consent. So if the officer has no legal basis to search your property, why would you give him consent?
Nothing good can come from consenting to an officer’s request to search your property, but many bad things can result.
What kind of bad things? Let’s see, the officer might:
1. find something your forgot about.
2. find something that belongs to someone who was recently on your property or in your car.
3. falsely claim he found something illegal. Think that kind of stuff only happens in the movies? Think again.
How should you refuse consent to a police search?
If you refuse consent, be calm, polite, and respectful. Say, “I don’t consent to searches.” That’s all you need to say. It’s also better to be general — “I don’t consent to searches” instead of “I don’t consent to this search.” That way, you’re just acting according to your longstanding policy. This makes it less personal.
If you refuse consent, be calm, polite, and respectful. Say, “I don’t consent to searches.” That’s all you need to say.
If you refuse consent, and the officer searches anyway, do not do anything to obstruct the search. Just as a false arrest doesn’t give you the right to obstruct the arrest, an illegal search does not allow you to obstruct the search. Just tell your lawyer as soon as you speak with him or her.
If you do refuse to consent, keep it general and keep it respectful: “I’m sorry, Officer, I don’t consent to searches.” If the officer persists in questioning you, you can say either of the following:
1. “Am I under arrest? or “Am I free to leave?”
2. I’m declining to speak to you without an attorney.
There is a very fine line between actively resisting (i.e. physically struggling with the officer) and assault or battery of a police officer. If you strike an officer, even accidentally, while you resist arrest, the police will consider that an attack on the officer, and will use greater force on you. You will also likely be charged with aggravated battery of a police officer – a felony.
Police Department Policies on Officers’ Use of Force Each police department has its own set of policies detailing what its officers can do in exercising force on suspects. The following is a basic outline of the different levels of force allowed, based on the actions of a subject. This is designed to give you a general idea, but is not an authoritative guide on all departments’ policies. These are not rules or laws, and different police departments will have different policies. But there are common elements in most police use-of-force policies.
The allowable level of force by an officer is based on the actions of the civilian subject. Here are the different levels of force allowed for each type of subject based on the subject’s actions:
Use of Force Myths:
a. “The officer will just shoot me in the leg or the arm, or shoot the gun out of my hand.”WRONG. When officers shoot at civilians, they will aim for “center mass,” i.e. your chest or back. They are trained to stop the threat, that is, to shoot until the threat is over. That usually means death. Officers are NOT trained to shoot at arms or legs.
b. “The gun wasn’t even loaded.” An officer has no way of knowing if the subject’s gun is loaded, and will always assume the gun is loaded.
c. “It’s only a knife.” A knife is a deadly weapon, and an officer will treat it just as if it’s a loaded gun.
The purpose of this section is to provide you with a basic understanding of the laws and rules governing the degree of force an officer may use in a given situation.
Knowing this information will hopefully guide you in avoiding or minimizing any force by the officer. This is not about providing you with talking points when you’re dealing with a police officer. You should not be arguing with the police officer about his legal obligations.
Reasonably Necessary Force
Regardless of whether we’re talking about the United States Constitution or police department policy, the first thing to know is that the extent of an officer’s allowable use of force is based on the actions of the subject (you). The more threatening or hostile your actions, the greater the force the officer can use.
The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution establishes than an officer’s use of force must be reasonably necessary under the totality of the circumstances to make an arrest.
That means that the police use of force must be reasonable under the circumstances. The level of force that constitutes “reasonable” force depends on the specific circumstances of the arrest, including the severity of the alleged crime, the threat posed to the officers, and whether the suspect is trying to resist or flee.
As you can see, this definition is very general. Each case will be analyzed on its own merits.
Less Cooperation = More Force Against You
Here’s the bottom line: the less cooperative you are during a police stop, the greater your resistance, the greater the force the officer can use.
For instance, an officer cannot use “significant” force on a suspect who is only passively resisting. Passive resistance might include not obeying commands and refusing to exit a vehicle.
But once you start actively resisting, an officer can use significant (i.e. painful) force. Active resistance might include pushing or hitting an officer, trying to break free, or resisting an officer’s attempts to handcuff you.
There is a very fine line between actively resisting (i.e. physically struggling with the officer) and assault or battery of a police officer. If you strike an officer, even accidentally, while you resist arrest, the police will consider that an attack on the officer and will use greater force on you. You will also likely be charged with aggravated battery of a police officer – a felony.
If you strike an officer, even accidentally, while you resist arrest, the police will consider that an attack on the officer and will use greater force on you. You will also likely be charged with aggravated battery of a police officer – a felony.
Each police department will have its own set of policies detailing what its officers can do in exercising force on suspects.
While police department policies are not necessarily law, they can serve as important guidelines for police conduct. Typically, they outline that an officer may use greater force as the suspect’s level of resistance grows.
Use of Force Myths:
• “The officer will just shoot me in the leg or the arm, or shoot the gun out of my hand.” FALSE. When officers shoot at civilians, they will aim for “center mass,” i.e. the chest or back. They are trained to stop the threat — that is, to shoot until the threat is over. That usually means death. Officers are NOT trained to shoot at arms or legs.
• “The officer can’t shoot me. My gun isn’t loaded.” FALSE. An officer has no way of knowing if the subject’s gun is loaded, and will always assume the gun is loaded. For the same reason, the law does not make a distinction between whether the civilian’s gun was later found to be loaded or unloaded. If the officer was reasonably in fear for his life, he will generally be justified in using deadly force.
• “It’s only a knife.” A knife is a deadly weapon, and an officer will treat it just as if it’s a loaded gun.
Remember, the allowable level of force by an officer is based on the actions of the civilian subject. Don’t put your physical safety in danger by resisting, and make sure the officer knows he has nothing to fear from you.
If you refuse consent, be calm, polite, and respectful. Say, “I don’t consent to searches.” That’s all you need to say.
If you refuse consent, and the officer searches anyway, do not do anything to obstruct the search. Just as a false arrest doesn’t give you the right to obstruct the arrest, an illegal search does not allow you to obstruct the search. Just tell your lawyer as soon as you speak with him or her.
The only exception you need to be concerned about at the time of the interaction is Consent. The other three exceptions will be legal issues worked out later if you end up getting arrested.
You are not required to answer the officer’s questions, except to provide your name and address. If the officer asks you if there is anything illegal in the car, you’re not required to answer. If there is nothing illegal in your car, you might want to answer the question. But if the officer urges you to consent to a search because you say there’s nothing illegal in your car, that’s no reason to consent. You can just say, “As a general rule, I don’t consent to searches.” If he asks you any further questions, you don’t have to answer or otherwise engage the officer except by following any instructions he gives you. Again, it helps you to be respectful: instead of refusing to say anything when an officer asks you a question, you can tell him you decline to answer any questions without an attorney present.
You may think an officer cannot arrest you without probable cause to believe you have committed a crime.
This is false.
Absence of probable cause makes the arrest legally invalid, and may provide you with a civil claim for false arrest. However, that won’t be determined until later, in court.
But even if the arrest lacks probable cause, you must to submit to the arrest, and you are not allowed to resist the arrest.
Your job is to submit to arrest peacefully, and bring up any legal issues with your lawyer later on. If you are arrested without probable cause, the charges against you may be dismissed, and you may have grounds to file a civil rights lawsuit against that officer, and, in some circumstances, against the city or county employing that officer.
FAQ:
Q. What is probable cause?
A. Probable cause to arrest exists when facts within the police officer’s knowledge would lead a reasonable person to believe the subject is involved in criminal activity. Probable cause must be based on specific facts and circumstances, not just the officer’s hunch or suspicion. Officers are allowed to rely on statements by a third person.
If you resist arrest, this will make things much worse for you. Don’t resist arrest and give an officer and excuse to use increased force, and don’t give them valid probable cause to arrest you.
When Can an Officer Detain Someone?
While a police officer needs probable cause to arrest someone, they only need reasonable suspicion to detain someone.
Police officers are allowed to temporarily detain (hold) civilians while they investigate whether the civilian was involved in criminal activity. This is also known as a “Terry Stop,” or a stop-and-frisk.
A temporary detention can last as long as one or two hours. Usually it takes place on the street or the subject may be placed in a police car. The detention may last only as long as treasonably necessary for the officer to investigate whether the subject was involved in criminal activity.
In order to detail a civilian, an officer needs to have reasonable suspicion that the civilian was, is, or will be involved in criminal activity.
Reasonable suspicion is a lower standard than probable cause. But, like probable cause, it must be based on objective facts within the officer’s knowledge. An officer cannot detain you because he has a “hunch” you did something wrong. Nor can an officer detain someone because of the color of her skin.
The Police Cannot Stop You For No Reason.
Neither probable cause (required for arrest) nor reasonable suspicion (required for detention) is enough to prove guilt in a criminal case. So just because the police have probable cause to arrest you does not necessarily mean that you are guilty.
But, in any event, the police cannot legally detain you without reasonable suspicion and they cannot arrest you without probable cause. When dealing with police, if you are arrested or detained without reasonable suspicion or probable cause, do not resist.
Recording the police is an important way to keep police accountable.
Often, police recordings can make or break a case in court.
But when can someone record the police?
Courts have generally held that citizens have a First Amendment right to record the police. However, as a general rule, the right to record the police is generally limited to recording the police 1) when they are performing official police functions, 2) in a public place.
Furthermore, while you can record the police performing their official duties in public, you are not allowed to interfere with the police while recording. So if an officer orders you to move, you must comply with the order.
Some states include “time, place, and manner” restrictions on police recordings. This means that you cannot get in the way of a police officer to record something. You cannot record police officers in a way that hinders their ability to do their jobs.
Police officers may not seize or inspect your phone or camera without a warrant or other legal basis, even if you are under arrest. So you can refuse an officer’s order to hand over your phone or let him inspect anything on the phone. If the officer insists, however, do not resist. Handle it in court.
If your constitutional rights are violated by a police officer or other law enforcement officer (sheriff or correctional officer), or by a municipality (a village, town, city, or county), you may have grounds for a lawsuit against the officers or municipality that violated your rights.
If you believe your rights were violated, you should immediately contact an experienced civil rights attorney.
Difference between criminal and civil legal proceedings:
• A criminal proceeding is brought against a criminal defendant by a county prosecutor (called the State’s Attorney in Illinois) for violations of state law, or by a federal prosecutor (a U.S. Attorney), for violations of federal law.
• A civil lawsuit is brought by individuals (known as Plaintiffs) against civil defendants, when the plaintiffs believe the defendants have violated their rights. These lawsuits usually seek money damages against the defendants. They can be filed in state court or federal court. Defendants can include law enforcement officers or municipalities.
Common types of Civil Rights Claims:
• False arrest
• Illegal seizure
• Excessive Force
• Wrongful death
• Unlawful Search and Seizure
• Harassment
• Violation of 1st Amendment Rights
• Malicious Prosecution
• Wrongful Conviction
• Conditions of confinement
• Excessive detention
• Denial of medical care
• Death in custody
FAQ:
Q. If my rights were violated when dealing with police, can I get a good civil rights attorney to represent me even if I suffered only minor injuries?
A. Yes. The federal civil justice system is designed to encourage people to enforce their rights by filing civil rights lawsuits, even if they suffered relatively minor damages. If you prove to a federal jury that your rights were violated, the Court will order the defendant to pay your civil rights attorney reasonable attorney fees, which do not come out of the award you receive. That way, your attorney has an incentive to take so-called small cases. If the officers’ conduct was particularly malicious or reckless, you may also be awarded punitive damages that are designed to punish the defendant officers in addition to compensatory damages that are designed to compensate you for your injuries.
Conclusion – The Ultimate Guide to Dealing with Police
To recap, when dealing with police:
1. Comply first, complain later.
2. Don’t resist arrest.
3. Show your hands.
4. Avoid quick movements.
5. Silence is golden.
6. Do not consent to searches.
7. Understand police use of force.
8. Understand when police can arrest or detain you.
9. Understand when you can record the police.
10. Enforce your rights.
Dealing with police can be very stressful. A lot of things are unfortunately out of your control. Even during a routine police stop, you never know when things might take a turn for the worse.
But for the things you can control, hopefully this guide can help to protect you, both physically and legally.
As a reminder, this guide is not legal advice. It confers no attorney-client relationship between our office and anyone who reads it. This is a collection of common-sense recommendations for how to maintain your life, your physical safety, and your legal options when dealing with police.
If you believe you or someone you know has been the victim of false arrest, police brutality, excessive force, or any other legal or constitutional violation, contact Chicago civil rights attorney Jordan Marsh for a free consultation at (224) 220-9000, or at jordan@jmarshlaw.com.
The information provided on this website does not, and is not intended to,
constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this site are for general informational purposes only. Use of and access to this website or any of the links contained within the site do not create an attorney-client relationship between you and our office.